Angela Luttick talks Australia, Research and Growth! : this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Narrator:
Welcome to the Molecular Moments podcast.
Jim:
Welcome to Molecular Moments today's episode, we're sitting down with Angela Ludeke, executive vice president of Biology Live from 360 Bio Labs, a bio genetics company my new colleague as of late last year. Angela, welcome to the podcast. Looking forward to speaking with you today? How are things? Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Angela:
So hi, Jim. Thanks for inviting me on this podcast. So a little bit about myself. So my background is virology. In my career, I've worked in biotech really for 15, 20 years, leading biology teams and post. That really was a starting to my zero career. So six years ago, we started 360 by labs. But up until then, really, it's all been respiratory virus research for me, RSV influenza, rhinovirus and a bit of hepatitis C in there as well.
Jim:
One of the things that I found interesting is we've gotten to know each other as part of this. There's a lot of similarities. I, viral immunologist by training come from a biotech and pharma background, move into a CRO background, move into commercial a bit away from hardcore science on this. You know, it's really interesting to find partners all the way on the other side of the globe, so well aligned with us. 360 has been a great partner already for biologics. Looking forward to what we can build together here. From your perspective, tell us a little bit about three 60 biolabs your overall capabilities, the capabilities that you add to biologics as a whole. Some of the unique aspects of 360 bio labs also.
Angela:
Yeah. Yeah, so so yeah, it's probably if I probably start back six years ago when 360 Labs started, that might be a good place to start. It was an interesting day back in. I think it was about March, March 30th in about 2014. It was the final day we were actually closed down the biotech pharmaceuticals laboratories in Melbourne. You know, Biotech had been one of the mainstays in the biotech sector in Australia. They've been around for about 30 years, and the recent board changes and listing on the Nasdaq, the team decided to close the laboratories in Australia and move the company to the USA. So, you know, having been there for 15 years and having the company do so much great research, it was a very sad day. So there was a team of about six or seven of us that were that were there until the end, closing down the laboratories, throwing everything out, selling all the equipment. As you can imagine, it's a it's a difficult experience. But on the very last day it was it was interesting in that we actually had a meeting at the Burnett Institute, which is a famous infectious diseases institute in Australia. We had a meeting with the deputy director to come and have a chat about potentially starting up a specialty lab and a CRO and seeing if we could hire some lab space. So on that same day that we were closing the door, a new opportunity was opening. So we met with the Burnett Institute. It was a very, very positive meeting.
Angela:
There was a small team at the Burnett Institute called the immuno monitoring facility the IMF. They were operating in the clinical trial space only in immunology. We had a team of four of us who were looking to to do clinical CRO or specialty labs in virology only. So he listened to our story and said, I love it. It's fantastic. But what I think we can do is we can bring together your virology, we can bring together the IMF immunology and we can start something new. And so that was how 360 Biolabs was launched. And six years later, we've expanded our site from a very, very small of research and academic lab to a whole floor at the institute. And then, as you know, October last year we were looking for a partner for our clients. Really, we do a lot of phase one clinical trials, and we can get into that a little bit later, Jim. But a lot of our clients were asking us to continue on with them through into phase two clinical trials. And the only way we could do that was to open up laboratories outside of Australia. So we went on a search for a partner to be able to help us through that process. And that's where we met via WikiLeaks and the rest is history there again. So now we obviously have sites right across the globe. So that's just a bit of a history of the company. Before I go into a bit of detail about our capabilities.
Jim:
So one of the other interesting things about 360 bio labs to me is the fact that you've got three co-founders that are really part of the company have been there from the start, have stayed with the company, really built an amazing organisation there in Australia, as you mentioned, primarily around early phase clinical trials, phase one trials, some real advantages in Australia. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that and sort of the structure that you've built there to support and why partnering with Biogen will be. Became such a a key element of your customer support there for three sixty.
Angela:
Yeah, well, there's probably three countries that are mostly supportive of early phase clinical trials. So so the US obviously supports a lot of early phase clinical trials. Australia does as well in China and in China. China mostly supports China clinical trials, but you know, the most outsourced clinical trials are really done in Australia and the USA as well. So Australia has a very favorable infrastructure in that you don't have to open an AI and D to do a clinical trial in Australia, so that can save you a lot of time. You also can get access to what's called an R&D tax incentives, so that's a tax incentive that will return 43 per cent back to you. That's for all activities that are considered research and development. So that's really all your clinical trial work because a clinical trial is a big research experiment, really, you don't know the outcome, so it's all considered R&D. And also, Australia is part of ICI. So given we're part of ICI, that means that there's mutual acceptance of data. So the USFDA, the EMA, everyone accepts the Australian data, so there's no compromise on quality when you're coming to Australia to conduct a clinical trial.
Angela:
So it's a very, very favourable environment for biotech companies. Obviously, if they're less funded, you know, speed and time is money, so therefore they can save a lot of time and therefore be more cost effective. And they can also get to that first milestone that, you know, phase one clinical data that you know, they're looking to partner with a larger pharmaceutical company. They can make that milestone earlier by conducting those clinical trials in Australia. And because we get such a diverse range of clinical trials coming into Australia, you know, the mindset that the three founders had at the start of 360 Labs was that we really had to be able to support any clinical trial that came. And this is how our diverse pharmacodynamic endpoints and support for clinical trials has just grown and grown and grown. First of all, it was more virology and immunology, and now it's expanded to a range of different therapeutic areas. And we've got small molecule peak support. We've got obviously a large immunology team. We've got a virology team, a molecular biology team, and so we can support all assays related to those different departments.
Jim:
So 360 was able to grow based on the customers that were coming there as they became more diverse, more frequently. Tapping into the Australian advantages for phase one studies, 360 could benefit simultaneously. That's awesome. Must be an amazing feeling for you, Mel and Al, the other two founders, really to sort of watch what's happened to this thing that you've create, not only just the personal satisfaction of building something, but how many different companies you're able to support. One of the great things about being in the CRO business, right, is that you're really tied to one success. You're hoping everybody wins when we're out there that when your customers come to, you want them to be successful and grow along with you. So how did 360 sort of spread word of mouth of, you know, Hey, we're this CRO that's building our capabilities here. We want to support your phase one studies is you're coming to Australia, keep your samples in country. What was the approach there? Because you're in a unique position there, not only scientific background, but also leading the commercial efforts of the team?
Angela:
Yeah, it was a great growing experience, really and a great learning experience. I'm a person who really, really likes to learn new things. So going into the beta role was something a little different. Initially at 360, I was leading the R&D team. But what we found is, you know, R&D scoped projects do change quite quickly. And so, you know, we decided to focus on on clinical and we closed down the R&D lab after the first two years and we had a restructure of the executive team and I moved into the BD team. So, you know, it was it was not a whole lot of experience bringing into that that BD role. But, you know, it seems to be reasonably successful and that was really just through a lot of relationship building, identifying who was in clinical trials in Australia, how we could provide a solution for them. I got some, some great advice along the way from some really fantastic mentors, and a lot of that advice was just get out there and pound the pavement. Brand recognition is everything. So, you know, there was a few years there pre-COVID, where I was travelling once a month for nine months a year, just getting out there to conferences, only business conferences.
Angela:
We chose very smartly. We were a very small team, you know, we only had sort of 30 or 40 of us for for many years, the companies up at about 90 now. But yeah, in those earlier days, it was really all about getting out to those business conferences where you could have those face to face meetings and people could learn a little bit more about the Australian advantage, about 360 Labs and then come and do some clinical work down under. Interestingly, now the great thing is is when we go to some of these meetings, we get an opportunity to sell the advantages of doing clinical trials in the US as well. And so a client can say, Yep, love the Australian Vantage I'm coming down on. All they can say, that's not for me, I'm not going to the other side of the world to do a clinical trial. I want to stay in the US. That's okay as well because biology letters can support a client anywhere. And that's the fantastic growth message, I think, and the excitement for the for Melinda, Alastair and myself through the growth of the merger with bio genetics, we can now take this company further.
Jim:
Yeah. And I definitely want to make sure we come back and talk a bit about COVID because there's an interesting story there for three, sixty and some of the support you built. For sure, it's kind of hard to imagine a time when we were traveling before all of this, you know, to think about getting out there and pounding the pavement. As you said, we've become sort of pounding the video screen even as we're recording a podcast here. You're in Melbourne. I'm just outside of Boston. We've never actually met face to face other than on a screen, which is also an interesting sort of relationship building process in this world that we're living in right now. So it's kind of an interesting follow on from the phase one studies you talked about wanting to be able to expand into the U.S. and expand globally. How about a little of what it was like before Bioanalytical? And then sort of the hope of what's going forward? Because one, we're already starting to see it. And I think we already have some success stories. But the thought process around having that work go global and what was really necessary to support your customers to eventually become bioanalytical customers for all of us?
Angela:
Yeah. Well, in those earlier days, it was a matter of forming partnerships with labs in the US, and we'd end up doing a great study and support and provide some fantastic data for this phase one clinical trial. And you know what it takes. Some of these biotech companies have never done a clinical trial before, so, you know, given our backgrounds in the biotechnology and pharma space, you know, we'd be we've been in their shoes and that's something our clients really love. They know we know what we're doing because we've already taken out well. We did take our products to the clinic, but then we could also hold their hands along their journey as well. And so you form very good relationships with some of these companies. And so to then say thanks very much. If you go to phase two to the US, it was, you know, it was at times quite hard. You know, you spend every other week for months sort of working together, getting assays developed and validated, and then you're providing data to see their cohorts dose and escalate through into the next cohort and then a successful clinical trial and phase one data out the other side.
Angela:
So you're going through this journey with your clients for four, six to eight months that it's it feels like then you're just saying goodbye to an old friend. So you know, the fantastic part about joining with BioWare Gilead is we could still be in contact with our clients and we've got some great experiences at the moment and we're only acquired a few months ago, but some really great examples where we have got phase one clients who are looking to continue on with biomedical ethics through into the US. It makes, you know, we don't necessarily have assays that will transfer immediately across, but there is some additional work to be done. But you've got the mindset and you've also got the expertise of the Australian and the US teams that can come together and make sure that that transition of assays is a very streamlined process. It means that the high quality assays that would develop for phase one that might need some additional work for phase two, as all assays do, can get done in that same high quality scientific environment. It's a win win for clients to continue on with us through to phase two.
Jim:
Yeah, and it's it's no different than actually being on the on the other side of the fence here. You feel some ownership and partnership with that customer, having been with the program so long, right? You want to see them succeed. You've learned a lot about their biology, or maybe the disease area that they're working in. You might be just as curious as they are about how this thing's going to turn out, for sure. Well, that's great. So three sixty serves a lot of areas. I do think one of the bedrocks strengths of 360 is certainly at the virology and vaccine support. Want to talk a little bit about the unique aspects of doing that work at 360, doing it in Australia in particular, just in general? How about let's talk a little bit about what vaccine trials look like in Australia? What are the unique aspects that you're able to support there, that your customers value that running at three 60 makes a difference for them?
Angela:
Yeah, there's a whole range of different vaccine studies that are conducted in Australia and and some of the studies that we've supported to date include, you know, RSV influenza, a lot of influenza work, actually EV71, Zika, chikungunya virus. We've done peanut allergy vaccines, a stack of COVID, which we can go into, but a whole range of different vaccines. Studies come down to Australia. The most benefit that a client gets from utilizing the southern hemisphere is probably more related to the seasonal virus vaccines. So RSV is influenza, you can do your northern hemisphere study and you can flip straight down to the southern hemisphere and follow on that season without losing any time, we have had clients that have said to us we've probably saved six months and millions of dollars by being able to flip straight to the southern hemisphere and not wait for the next northern hemisphere influenza season, for example. So, you know, because there we've got quality systems and also alignment amongst how clinical trials are run in the US as well as Australia. It's a very easy transition down down to Australia. So there really are some advantages there, particularly for those seasonal flu as well as seasonal respiratory virus vaccine studies. And it's interesting. It was very fortuitous that we opened up at the Burnet Institute as well because the Bernet have had a Category three laboratory.
Angela:
I think in Australia it's called a physical containment three are you? Call it a BSL three laboratory. So we've got Cat two Cat three labs, which allows us then to support a whole range of different virus endpoints. I think at the moment, we're all going to be working on a a virus clinical trial as well. So, you know, it's really quite a diverse offering you can offer. And you know, given given we're in a biotech company in our previous lives and we were developing assays against respiratory viruses, you know, it allows us really to use any any type of assay endpoint to be able to support that vaccine clinical trials. So we're doing migrants, we're doing this, we're doing plaque reduction assays, we're doing parentis Tse 1850's, you know, everything that you can imagine. You would need to measure the endpoint of a virus the team can do because we've done it before. We've got a massive repository of cells. We've got a massive repository of viruses. So, you know, it just allows us to be able to develop assays or client specific assays really quite quickly and streamlined.
Jim:
So that's a fascinating sort of aspect of 360. I never really thought about the seasonality and the ability to work around the clock, essentially all year round. So because of the nature of the the rapid entry into a phase study phase one study in Australia, do people typically start in Australia and then go to the U.S. or go to Europe to do that seasonality? Or are they actually separate that they can start on either end and then make it work by bringing the the samples and testing to three 60?
Angela:
Yeah, now that's a good question, Jim. And we do get that often there's a couple of phase two clinical trials that clients have decided. They just want to open up an Australian subsidiary to claim the R&D tax incentive and just send all their samples down to Australia for analysis. And that's been working really, really well. So we developed a suite of assays for a one particular company, supported them for one aspect, and they moved that study through into a phase 2B and we're continuing to support them as well. So, you know, clients have the option of either starting it in Europe or us and then coming down under or starting their phase one in Australia. And I think a really good example of how successful that has been is a company Novavax, who's who's doing the COVID vaccines, are doing a COVID vaccine. Well, still phase three study. You know, it is in the public domain that we're supporting Novavax. So this won't be a surprise to anyone listening. So Novavax did start their phase one down in Australia. It was a very successful clinical trial. It was quite quick. And then they moved to phase two and phase three globally. They've continued to use 360 via labs, and our virology team have certainly had a wonderful experience, and it's been very exciting to be able to watch a vaccine come now down to Australia. The TGA, for example, just approved the Novavax vaccine last Thursday, so it will roll out in Australia. And so, you know, it's a great story that we've been along on the ride with Novavax and that we've also been able to provide the data that's got them through a lot of the regulatory agencies. Obviously, we've haven't supported every aspect of their clinical trial. It's mostly been micro neutralization testing. But you know, I think that goes to show that for a large biotech company like Novavax choosing a lab in Australia to support their program, you know, just kudos to us. I think
Jim:
So. That's great, and that must be incredibly satisfying to be really on the front lines of sort of fighting back against this pandemic that we're all fortunately, two years into to dealing with and being a part of that development work must be very satisfying, very rewarding the things that we all point to of saying, yes, I did get a chance to work on that drug that got approved. That's helping people. I want to talk a little bit about that because oftentimes people think about how biotech and pharma companies mobilised themselves to start making new vaccine candidates and using new technologies. But I think lost on a lot of people is on the back end of that, the tools that were necessary. To characterize these things, to be able to quantitate the vaccine, the immune response, the antibodies to it, is it actually developing protective immunity antibodies that have some level of protection, which three 60 was well involved in and a big part of coming up with a whole suite of assays to support these things? What was the moment where maybe the three of you or your entire team sort of sat down and said, Wow, we've got to get out in front of this? We're perfectly suited to be a part of this. If only we do this, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it was. So what was that discussion like? Maybe roughly, when did it happen in the sort of timeline of things here and what came next for 360 at that point?
Angela:
I love that question, Jim, because there was this moment and it was in March, it was probably February, actually 2020. So, you know, we were seeing COVID around the world. We knew it was going to come to Australia. You know, 360 felt that, you know, the clinical trials sector would probably start to slow down as COVID hit Australia. Phase one units would close and the whole sector and also the business could be at jeopardy. So to risk mitigate, we thought, let's go back to our roots a little bit. Let's open up the R&D team again. Let's see if we can grab the virus from a local lab. The Doherty Institute, who has been really world renowned during the whole of the pandemic in Australia, the team has been doing a lot of epidemiology and being able to predict essentially what maximum infection rates we would get on a weekly and monthly basis, and they've been very accurate. So it's a fantastic institute and they did. That were the first ones to isolate the virus outside of China, and that was back in in January 2020. So we contacted the institute. The institute were happy to to provide us for research purposes. A vial of the virus. We then did obviously propagate it, and then we advertised that we were supporting R&D projects. We got this absolute flood, just a flood of requests. Everyone was wanting hand sanitisers. Everyone was had this next aerosolized that was able to, you know, clear the virus from the air. You know, we had the most weird and wonderful requests. It was an insane experience every single day. I don't even know how my mobile phone number got out there, Jim, but every single day I would have 10 or 12 calls, just random calls asking if three sixty five labs could support some crazy idea they had for a cure for for COVID.
Angela:
So we probably spent from March to July entertaining some of these ideas, doing a lot of work in our PC3 lab, trying to prove that some of these potential therapeutics and potential antiseptics could work. And you know, to be honest, I say weird and wonderful, but there was probably five or six different amazing outcomes that came for companies who have then taken their product further, whether that be a mask that really does inactivate the virus or a nasal spray from Star Pharma. So, you know, there were some great outcomes that came from that work. But what we found in Australia is the clinical trial sector didn't close down, it didn't slow down. The business was considered essential. And so therefore clinical trials stayed open in Australia. So about July that year, we've then closed back down the R&D lab because we were just continuing on with too much vaccine work. Obviously, we'd secured the Novavax clinical trial and others were coming through as well that we've supported 12 to 15 now in the last two years. And so we really did need that expertise into the clinical team. So so we let go the R&D team again as in let go close down those teams across to the clinical team and continued to support vaccine work. But it was the most amazing experience. I've never experienced anything in my life. The flood of requests and the desperation of people to get their products onto market, as we did over that five or six months.
Jim:
So I guess I should take the bait on at least part of this and ask what was the absolute craziest thing that someone came to you with?
Angela:
We had these. Yeah, well, you had this one group believed that they had an air of saliva that was going to be able to cleanse the air. And, you know, the concept fine. Not a problem with that. But when they describe to us how they wanted us to do the experiment, that was the problem. All they wanted us to do was go into our PC three lab, aerosolized the virus, use the instrument and prove that it's not in the air. So trying to explain to a layperson that how could I keep my team safe from infection, from COVID by aerosolized the virus in the laboratory? It's the one thing we do, Jim. It's the one thing we do as virologists and in a category three laboratory. Try not. To aerosolize the virus as soon as you have a spill and there is a lot if you leave the lab. So that was the most bizarre experience, just because a layperson doesn't really understand the scientific aspect of how you would do the experiment to prove their product was going to work.
Jim:
It almost sounds like it's a version of the origin of the virus and how it got out there. The last thing you want to do is lose containment of this thing. So, OK, wow. So that's great. You know, we actually saw quite a bit of that on our side of the globe here, too, of people that had a lot of interesting ideas, all well, meaning everyone's trying to sort of chip in. It's probably one of the great things, one of the great scientific efforts of the past couple of years of seeing people mobilize themselves for for more than just their own good, but for the common good. But man, there's a lot of things that have been kicked around as science that haven't necessarily really looked like science by the time we were done with it. You mentioned that you contributed to the COVID work sort of created some of the things that you were doing and then immediately got back into the vaccine work, right? I mean, I guess that's the other thing is that the layperson has been just overwhelmed with COVID for the past two years. You see it on the news. You read it everywhere you go. You're thinking about it because you're masked up when you're going out. But there's a whole host of other things that are going on out there from a research standpoint that other drugs and other things that we're trying to deal with as a company and other biotech and pharma companies are doing. You've mentioned a number of different viruses. Three, as a virology based lab in a vaccine based lab, can contribute to a lot of things that are just as troublesome in the world as something like COVID right now. Certainly not the sheer numbers we've seen in the last two years, but influenza RSV. A lot of these things. What's been the impact and involvement for 360 on those types of programs?
Angela:
Yeah. So influenza is very popular in Australia. So you know, there is a great series of phase one units in Australia. So healthy volunteer studies are conducted in phase ones in Australia, and they're very sophisticated phase one units in Australia. There's five of them, and I think the main team that does vaccine studies is a nucleus network team. So they have a Brisbane lab, they have an infectious diseases expert who is one of their principal investigators. So they do conduct a lot of vaccine studies up in Brisbane. So influenza is probably one of the main viruses that that comes down under one of the main vaccines that is that is supported. There's there's a bit of RSV as well, as you mentioned, but really they're the main two respiratory viruses that come down to Australia for vaccine studies.
Jim:
On average, I mean, how many programs per year do you think are being conducted for those types of studies? Let's just take influenza that people are working on in the Australian market.
Angela:
Yeah, I don't think it's a huge amount, unfortunately. I think there's probably, you know, probably only a handful of vaccine studies in one particular virus space, you know, because Australia's attractive for so many biotech companies. We don't tend to specialise in one particular area. Vaccines is high. Infectious diseases is something that a lot of clients come to Australia for. But you know, there's a lot of oncology that's done in Australia. There's also a lot of cardiovascular, there's a lot of immunity, inflammation, those sorts of areas. I think I think Australia is in the top 10 for a range of different therapeutic areas, including some of those that I just mentioned. So, you know, even though Australia has this wonderful infrastructure and also there's wonderful expertise in vaccine studies, it's just one of the therapeutic areas that that Australia supports in that early phase sector.
Jim:
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely I know that just from my prior experience, I've worked with a lot of the oncology centres there, Peter Mac and some of the others. A lot of experience there. And great science and great investigational sites. Great infrastructure, as you said to you for doing this work. So we've talked a lot about sort of where 360 came from the past couple of years as as it's been interesting with COVID support and other vaccines, maybe just a couple of minutes now as we start to wrap up around the idea of where is 360 headed, you know, what are your areas for growth there? What are you thinking and looking forward to growing along with Biogen and our new partnership together?
Angela:
Yes. So, you know, 360 Labs now being a bio analytics company, you know, I don't necessarily think of 360 bio labs too much anymore. I guess our brand recognition is pretty great in Australia, so it makes sense to keep the 360 name. But you know, we're thinking more of a global business now. We're continuing to grow in in Australia so that our laboratory footprint is bigger so that we can keep expanding. There's lots of because the attraction to Australia. Is so great for early phase work, you know, there's a lot of talk about additional phase one units opening up in Australia so that we can support more clinical trials. So the sector itself in Australia is growing. And so as 360 Biolabs has to expand with that or, you know, there'll be another competitor that will open up in Australia and be able to take some of that work. So we're about to double double our footprint in in Melbourne. Opening a second site and we're also continuing to grow our our Brisbane lab as well. At the moment, it's a small processing lab for clinical trials that are conducted and samples that need to be processed within a matter of hours. But we expect to really open that lab up to be a much, a much bigger team so that we can support more studies at both the Melbourne and Brisbane sites as well. So for us, it's still a growth story, and I think, you know, that's consistent with the bio analytics growth story globally.
Jim:
Yeah, absolutely. So are there new sort of service lines or thinking about new therapeutic areas that you're interested in getting into what will be the new aside from new footprint? What are the new areas of technology that you're looking forward to?
Angela:
Yeah, I think molecular, really. We get a lot of requests for molecular assays that we either use partner labs in Australia, but having that expertise in-house would be really, really great. Certainly in the oncology space, there's a lot of bespoke assays that we do work with. You mentioned Peter Mac before. There's some great oncology labs in Australia that that are supporting some of those studies. But you know, some of those labs don't necessarily or they can't necessarily support PK or ADR, for example. So, you know, if you've got to use two different labs to support your clinical trial, a client is sometimes going to back away from that, you know. In Australia, we find the one stop shop or the placing or the work with the one lab is the preferred model. So, you know, if 360 can expand some of the services into the genomic space, I mean, I think that's where a lot of a lot of clinical trials are heading in the future anyway, then we'll be able to offer a more comprehensive service.
Jim:
All right. Great. Yeah. And I think all of our services became more comprehensive through this partnership now that we have such complementary capabilities and help fill each other's gaps. And it's been great talking with you this afternoon here this afternoon, my time, this morning, your time. Thanks so much for taking the time to educate us a little bit on 360 and come on the podcast. It's already been a great collaboration with you and your team. Looking forward to what we're going to build in the future here. So thank you so much.
Angela:
Pleasure, Jim. Thanks for having me.
Jim:
The Molecular Moments podcast, sponsored by Biogen, is an ongoing conversation about the various nuances of drug development and bio analysis. In each episode, we sit down with a different industry leader to explore their area of expertise. The industry as a whole and the mentors who help them become the scientists they are today. It's a podcast for scientists by scientists. Listen and subscribe to molecular moments today on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen to your podcast content. Thanks so much for joining us.
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