Molecular Moments - Lynn Kamen and Michelle Miller v3.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Voice Over:
Welcome to the Molecular Moments podcast.
Lynn:
Welcome to the Molecular Moments Podcast. My name is Lynne Carman and I am a scientific officer at Biologics. Today I am joined by my fellow scientific officer, Michelle Miller. Michelle, welcome to the pod. Thanks.
Michelle:
Hey, Lynn. Hi, everybody.
Lynn:
Fun fact for the audience. In addition to both being scientific officers, we are both card carrying immunologists. So tell me, Michel, how is it that you came to be an immunologist? What prompted you to start on the career path of science?
Michelle:
That's a really funny question because there was no career path to science for me when I was younger. I almost feel like I kind of fell into the career of science, so I never wanted to be a scientist when I was younger. Before college, I actually almost failed chemistry in high school. I was definitely not a science person.
Lynn:
So what you're saying is, for anybody who's struggling with chemistry in high school, it is not a science that a STEM career is out of the question. I like that. I like.
Michelle:
This. There's always you can always come back from that. So when I was going to college, I thought about the things that I was good at and I made this very analytical decision. I loved art and I was really good at math, so I should be an architect. So I applied to a bunch of colleges. I ended up going to the College of Design at North Carolina State University in Raleigh, North Carolina. Spent about two years in that program before I realized that I actually did not want to be an architect. So I had to kind of backpedal and think about was there anything else I might want to be? And so the only other thing I could think of was I love animals. And when I was ten, I wanted to be a veterinarian. So why not let's go to vet school. So I switched majors, right? I mean, that seems reasonable. So I switched majors to zoology with the idea of going to vet school. And that was really my first big foray into science. I then realized once I was doing the pre vet track that there are a lot of people that do the pre vet track and think they're going to go to vet school and don't for a variety of reasons, right? One, because it's incredibly difficult to get into that school and to because I think a lot of people find that to be an interesting career until they actually start working at vet offices and getting a feel for what that career would be like. And then they change their minds. So with that in mind, I decided that zoology might not actually get me a really good job when I graduated, so I wanted to pick up another major. So I decided to do a second major in chemistry.
Lynn:
So my goodness. So we went from architecture to zoology and then zoology slash chemistry. So the thing that stumped you in high school became your major in college. That's so.
Michelle:
Incredible. Big circular movement in my life there away and then back to chemistry. So I graduated with those two degrees in science and went out and got my first grown up job working for Pfizer Animal Health. And it was actually before they became Zoetis and I did vaccine research and development there. So that's really where I fell in love with immunology. So I worked there for a little while and then I once again made this analytical decision on where my life should go. I looked around me and I said, You know that physician looking at the people that worked at the company, that position is what I would eventually want to become at this company. So I can either work here for 20 years to get the experience and the knowledge and move up to that position. Or I could go back to school and get an advanced degree, and that might help me get to that position a bit faster. So that's why I went back to school for immunology.
Lynn:
Oh, that's amazing. All right. So question, Was it something that I've always wondered about because my career path was pretty much straight through, but for you, having worked in industry for a few years before going back to school, was it a challenge going back to school? Because any time I have friends that get advanced degrees later in life, I always think to myself, I would never want to take another test and get graded again. So was that a challenge getting settled back into the school mindset?
Michelle:
You know, maybe a little bit. Just because I hadn't been doing, you know, late night studying and having homework assignments and things, but not overall, you know, I kind of treated grad school like it was another job. So for me, I showed up at seven or 730 in the morning, hit the ground running. You know, I was doing essays and being really productive all day. I utilized incubation times to do studying and kind of got it all done during the day. And then I'd go home at dinnertime and act like I was off work for the day. So I didn't do weekends unless I had to. Obviously sometimes you're doing an essay where you don't have a choice, right? But I tried to make sure that I was just focused and at it 40 to 50 hours. And then that was how I handled it. So to me it was pretty manageable. I feel like a lot of people that are listening to this are going to be like, Gosh, I hate that. That wasn't my experience at all.
Lynn:
Definitely not mine. I was not that focused. I wish I had been as focused and dedicated as you. There was a bit more revelry, I think, on my end.
Michelle:
I was kind of like the grad school mom, right? I was a little bit older than everybody else. But anyway, yeah. So that's where I decided to go back and I got my PhD in immunology and I actually got it at the vet school at NC State. So fun fact, I technically went back to vet school.
Lynn:
So, hey, you did the thing that not many people do.
Michelle:
I did. I did pre, but then I actually went and did something at the vet school. I wasn't a diva, but hey, you know, I still went there. So that's me in a nutshell. But now I want to hear about you. I want to hear about what got you into immunology.
Lynn:
Okay. So kind of a different path as we I already alluded to. So when I was in high school, my older sister was in college and she was diagnosed with autoimmune disease, Crohn's disease, to be specific. And while I do not want to date myself, this was back in the day before we had like monoclonal antibody therapeutics. So the only way that the doctors could treat her flare ups at that time were to give her extremely high doses of steroids, which just for anyone who's ever had to take steroids for a range of different conditions, it's a terrible treatment. There's tons of side effects and it's just not ideal. So as a young person embarking upon their college career, I thought to myself, you know, I think I'm going to go to school, major in biology, become a doctor and cure Crohn's disease. Sure, sure. So while that didn't work out exactly as I forecast, that's how I started down my career path.
Michelle:
So I was in my sister ever. Right?
Lynn:
I think you get that.
Michelle:
Award for making your whole career based on your.
Lynn:
Severe. We'll have to pull her on that one. But so I went to undergrad preparing to go to medical school and like to make myself more of an attractive candidate to medical school. Of course, I did a bunch of research internships because you need to get additional experience to make your applications seem more attractive and things like that. But what I found about doing the bench research is I loved it. I loved setting up an experiment, not knowing what the result would be. And then, you know, sometimes it worked and sometimes things caught fire. Just kidding. I don't think I ever actually set anything on fire, although there was one time that I did break the was the one Western blot developer that they had at the University of Wisconsin-Madison for like two weeks. Oops. Yeah, guys, that was me. But anyway, science, it's a trial and error process, right?
Michelle:
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Lynn:
But any rate. So I was doing a lot of research and I was really enjoying it. And actually, when I met with my med school career advisor, Dr. Barbara Brennen from Wheaton College, if you're out there listening, thank you for helping to shape my life direction. No pressure on that one. At any rate, we were talking about going to med school and what my plans were and things like that. And she had asked, what happens if you don't get into med school? What are you going to do then? And I was like, Well, if I don't go into med school, I'm going to apply to grad school and then I'm going to do get my PhD in research field like immunology. She said to me, You know, you seem so much more animated about going to get your graduate school degree than you do about medical school. Medical school almost feels like something that you're just doing because it's a box checking exercise, and that's what you would set out to do. Now, for anybody who knows me, I put the A in Type A, So the idea of not doing a box checking exercise and pivoting from my original career plan kind of threw me for a loop. But the more I thought about it, Michelle, the more excited I started to be about going to grad school.
Lynn:
So ultimately I never applied to med school, although I did take my MCAT. So for anybody with SAT through the end of that process, I feel your pain. But I ended up applying to grad school and then I got in and started doing research to get my PhD in immunology. And so I, you know, after spending numerous years at the University of Michigan freezing in the winters of Ann Arbor, which becomes an icy tundra that is gray and cold between the months of November and May, I decided I needed to go someplace warmer and eat for my postdoctoral fellowship. I needed to go someplace warmer. So I continued my westward migration going from Wheaton College in Massachusetts to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, out to sunny California, to the University of California, San Francisco. And when I was doing my postdoc at UCSF, what was really incredible was that a lot of the different professors there are on science advisory boards for different startups in the Bay Area, and they would tell us what kind of work was going on at the. Different startups. And I became really excited because I think in the academic setting what you do is you like I was very into signal transduction pathways and how that could lead to activation of the immune system, which could lead to autoimmune disease.
Lynn:
And so, you know, you study a signal pathway, you find a protein that leads to immune cell activation and you're like, that could be a target for an autoimmune therapy. But when you're working at one of those biotech companies, you're directly working on a drug that can target that pathway. And the science that you're doing, the benchtop science directly can impact patient health. So I became very interested in making the transition from academia to industry. So wanting to go into industry is different than being able to get into industry. And so I think one of the first hurdles I really encountered after finishing my postdoc was how to make the transition from academics to industry. And, you know, I've spoken to people in a similar position and how do I get my foot in the door? How do I get into industry advice? It takes time. It takes time and a brutal number of job applications. So it took me over six months to get my foot in the door and it was basically a job posting came out that I felt like it had been written for me, the exact things that they were looking for. I'm like, I do this, I do that. I don't even need to like fluff up my resume. I actually do all of these things. This is perfect.
Michelle:
Yes.
Lynn:
So the right job came along. I fit the conditions that they were looking for and I was able to start there and get my foot in the door working at small startups. So that is how I started on my career in science and immunology.
Michelle:
Yeah, I feel like that's a common hurdle for people, right? I heard it all the time. How do I get into industry? How do I get into industry? And I never had a magic answer either. It's you just keep trying. You have to find the right point of entry, right? The right position and the right group.
Lynn:
Right. And you have to not get discouraged. And I know it's hard because when you're sending out resumes, it's like you're putting them into a black hole. But putting your resumes into these giant pharma websites can actually work. So side note, I'm going to keep continuing on. I was able to get a job at a Big Pharma several years on working at Genentech because my resume had been submitted for a different position, but somebody, a hiring manager saw my resume, saw that I had the exact skillset that they were looking for and ended up hiring me for a position I never even applied for. So when you think that you're throwing your resume into a black hole, you aren't, people can see it. So I would say persistence is key.
Michelle:
Yeah, definitely persistence is key. Well, I think that we took slightly different routes to becoming immunologist, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty clear, right? We had different points in time in our careers and our paths where we did a little meandering and figuring out exactly what we wanted. But, you know, I think what's really interesting about this is that you and I have the same position at biomedical ethics now, right? We're both scientific officers and we both came from a more technical background, right? So before I became a scientific officer, I was working at Biologics, leading a team of people in the lab. And that's what you did, right? You came from Genentech and you were working in the lab. So we went from that to scientific officer, and we started on the exact same day. So we kind of both went our own way and then came back together in the end, which is very interesting.
Lynn:
It is very I will.
Michelle:
Say, even though we started on the same day, you started way earlier in the day than I did. So you are on California time. I am on North Carolina time. So I get to start a full 3 hours different than you. So my 8:00 is your 5 a.m. and I know you've had some very early days at 5 a.m.. So how do you do that? That's what I want to know. How do you get up and work that early in the morning and find your motivation?
Lynn:
That is funny. Well, so first and foremost, I am a morning person, so for me, getting up early is not the most traumatic thing. But there have been several days that I have to get up at 430 or 4 a.m. to have meetings. And the thing is, it's the excitement. Michelle I love doing what we do. I feel like here as a scientific officer at biology, I get to be a consultant for everyone. And so if you're a consultant, you just get to help people. And so helping people troubleshoot assays here with our internal teams and helping people on the outside decide what is the best scientific potential sponsors and things like that, helping them decide what is the correct scientific strategy that they want to follow. I love doing that. So I don't have a problem getting up early because I get to do what I love to do, which is pitching in on challenges related to a wide variety of drug development and ultimately helping out my team. So I love.
Michelle:
That. I love that. Yeah. I'm also a morning person. But not that much of a morning. I also do love my job, but four or 5 a.m. is very early for me. Well.
Lynn:
Let me ask you. What is it that you love about the scientific officer role and what do you love about working at Bio? Because you were here previously in the technical role as an operations lead and then you transitioned into the scientific officer role. So it seems like you've had a very good experience at bio age, seeing as you've been here for so long.
Michelle:
Yeah, definitely. You know, there are several things that I love about the job of being a scientific officer. I think the number one thing is that it's challenging. You know, you and I live this every day. We're constantly having to put on a different hat, a different analytical hat, right? So we jump from helping someone internally to helping someone externally. We jump from one project to another, one therapeutic to another, one assay to another. So maybe we're on a call talking about PQRS, and then later we're on a call talking about cell based nabs. So it's just like constantly jumping from one thing to the next. And it keeps my brain so active and some days I'm completely mentally exhausted at the end of the day. But I like that. I like a challenge. I think people who do the things that we do both really like those kinds of challenges and being able to be analytical and pitch in. And then the other part of it, I think coming from the operations side is that it was always so great to feel supported internally. So to have people like our CSO. One time Jim McNally got on a call with me and helped me when I was in charge of an essay and I was having an issue and he helped pick through some of the data and, and it was just so refreshing to have another set of eyes on a project, to have it be not something that was judgmental.
Michelle:
And there is no itinerary there except just to help me. So being able to be that person now for other project leads and things internally is just very rewarding, right? So I want them to feel appreciated. I want them to feel like we're here to help you. We want you to be successful. And I feel like that's what the scientific office is really built internally to help support other people. So I just love all of that. As far as the company, obviously, I've been with biologics, like you said for a while. I've actually am coming up on five years now and you know, I've kind of seen it through different phases. It was a much smaller company when I started, but it's always been the same kind of inclusive, supportive environment like like I was talking about so many people that have different backgrounds and they're all so smart and we get them all together and it's actually like an open door policy. You know, people talk about having open door policies at companies, and that's not always really the case when you get in there. But at Biologics, it's definitely that way. I have never had a shortage of help when I've asked for it, so I just really like that kind of feel to the company that we're all here working hard and we're all supporting one another to make sure that everything is successful and we're doing the best that we can to help one another out.
Lynn:
I totally agree with that. And I love what you say about the open door policy because I feel that way too. You know, for me, coming here, starting, I am remote, I am located in San Francisco, and most of our while we do have a lab in San Diego, we also have labs in Durham and Boston. And so I was really worried about being remote. How challenging would it be to make connections, how challenging it would be to be of help to people? And what I love is that people will just totally reach out and be like, Hey, Lynn, do you have a minute? I want to talk about this validation issue or do you have time to talk about this? And so even though we are all remote and we are a global company, I do think that we're all connected. And I think one of the main ways that we stay connected is through an innovation that our boss, Jim McNally, set up, which was through our scientific office hours. So for anybody who's not familiar with it once a week, usually it's Friday mornings. Sometimes though, it's Thursday afternoon, so we can get our West Coast and Australian colleagues in on the call because we also have labs in Australia. We get together and we kind of host. It's like an open call where anybody can come in and ask any questions. And I think it's great because there's just so many different dynamic questions and I always end up learning something because it's not just US officers answering questions, it's other people across the company who have different experiences, different ranges of time, having been at Biologics and, you know, it's just a really dynamic conversation, I think.
Michelle:
Yeah, I think it's been great. You know, it's been implemented for a while now, but I, I predated it as well. So when I worked in operations to start with, we didn't have it and now we do. And I agree. I think it's such a wonderful forum to be able to just let people come in and bring up whatever they want. So what's the technical challenge you have this week? Is there something regulatory wise that maybe we just want to discuss at a hypothetical level? So there's so many different levels of interaction there and it's open to everyone, right? So it's not just, you know, upper level managers and hire or anything like that. It's everyone that wants to come and join. You could be from QA, you could be from our business group, you could be in the lab as an analyst or you could be leading projects as an upper level scientist. But just. Having that whole flow of information available for everyone every week has been super rewarding.
Lynn:
I also feel it's an opportunity for people to start to form mentorships in some way. You know what I mean? Like you're there as like a subject matter expert. If somebody is coming in with questions about a cell based assay, you can answer their questions and that can lead to a deeper interaction. And I'm really passionate about mentorship and mentoring other people because I know I would not be where I am right now if it wasn't for some strong mentors that I've had the virtue of meeting and encountering over my career path. So, Michelle, one question for you. Have you had any strong mentors that have really had a strong impact on your career? And if so, who were they and how did they.
Michelle:
Yeah, you know, I've thought about mentors a lot over the last few years because as I started to grow my own team and potentially take on a mentor role for other people, I kind of thought about what have I gained from mentors and how could I reflect that back and supply that to other people. And one thing that always stuck with me is that the word mentor just seems so formal to me. So when I think of a mentor, I think of this like shining golden example of all things that I want to be imparting their knowledge and wisdom. But I don't think that's true. I think, you know, when I kind of pull back and take a look at what a mentor role looks like, I've had tons of mentors that I never realized at the time were mentors, so it could be people that maybe I just had one long conversation with, and that conversation stuck with me, and some part of it shaped some of the decisions that I made in the future. And so now I would consider that person a temporary mentor. And then there are other people, right, that have bigger impacts because you're with them for, for years and years.
Michelle:
Like my PI in grad school, she and her husband kind of dual guide the lab that I was in. So they both served as mentors to me. And there were so many things that they taught me between the two of them. But, you know, I just I really hope that that I could do that for somebody. You know, I remember the first time someone referred to me as their mentor a few years ago, and it like surprised me like, oh, am I that person? No, I get to be a mentor. But it's definitely something that I've started to take more seriously and been a little bit more active about thinking about like, who can I form new relationships with that can impart some of that mentorship. And then also, who can I maybe provide that to you as a mentor myself? But what about you, Lynn? I know you have mentioned a few people already on the call, but I'm sure you have a list of people that maybe you want to give a shout out to. Or you could tell us a little bit about someone that's really impacted the way that your career has gone.
Lynn:
I do, and I have been very fortunate that I have had a number of fantastic managers and professors and advisors over the years that have really helped shape my career path. But if I had to call out one in particular that really, really drove me to where I am today and still I think about the guidance from this individual, it would be my graduate school professor Joel Swanson from University of Michigan. So Joel taught me obviously how to do science at a grand level and how to be an active investigator and have questions and how to execute on them and how to answer them. But he also taught me how to have balance was one big thing that he taught me, and this was years ago. So before things like work life balance were really even talked about, he really embodied that. So Type A, as we've said before, quite the go getter. I would go in on weekends and I would do experiments because I'm like, Got to go, got to go, got to go, go to graduate, get to graduate. And he would come in occasionally on weekends and he'd be like, Oh, Lynn, what are you doing here? And I'd say, Oh, well, I'm doing this experiment. This experiment. He's like, Yeah, yeah, I get that. But why? Why now? What's the difference between doing it today versus two days from now on a monday and maybe like taking some time to relax? And I was like, I never thought about doing that before.
Michelle:
I can do that.
Lynn:
But that does sound intriguing to me. I would love to catch up on Grey's Anatomy. It is addictive. So different things like that. He was a very gentle guide. So one of the big things about if you're in grad school in order to graduate is you have to write a certain number of scientific papers. And for anyone who has ever had to write a scientific manuscript, it is a beast. It's all very passive voice. It all has different tenses that have to switch back and forth between the section of the article that you're writing. And it's challenging to learn how to write in the scientific voice, I would say. So I was working on my big first author paper for Joel, and I think I spent like a month or six weeks drafting it and I turned it into him and I'm like, This is going to be so good. And it comes back and there's like very minimal, minimal corrections on this paper. And I'm like, I'm the best writer ever. So I make the corrections and I'm laughing because I know where this. Story goes, Forgive me, but I make the corrections and I send it back to Joel, and then it comes back and it is completely red light. There's no more gentle pencil. It is a red pen and it is aggressive. And so I say, Joel, what happened? Like, if you like, the initial review was really good. And he's like, Oh no, actually it was really terrible, but it was your first time writing a paper, so I didn't want to discourage you. And I was like, Oh.
Michelle:
Okay.
Lynn:
But, you know, he knew what I needed and he encouraged me at all steps in my career. So I, I will always remember Joel for that.
Michelle:
I love this so much because you and I are both very type-A, right? We both love to make lists. We like things to be organized and color coded, but sometimes we are also very different. So that was your mentor experience? One of the mentors that I mentioned, one of the guys in grad school. For me, similar situation I wrote my first paper, thought I was a fantastic writer, turned it in and gave it to him, was ready to hear him. Tell me how great of a writer I was when he gave it back. And it comes back and it's like sections just crossed out, scribbled through, and he's like, This is terrible. You are a really bad scientific writer. Oh, and gives it back. He's like, Just start over. Which is funny because for you, like you need to be eased into it and that. But for me, I was like, All right then, fine. Like it made me mad and it motivated me. So I would.
Lynn:
Challenge, accept.
Michelle:
Challenge, accept it because that's what I needed. So I went on and I actually wrote enough papers in grad school that my thesis was very easy for me to write because every chapter was actually a published paper. But it was a struggle to get through that process and get a paper that he found acceptable. But it made me a better writer. So, you know, I think that's one thing about mentors, right? They give us what we need.
Lynn:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So as we've talked about the evolution of our careers from baby scientists and grad school all the way through now to being scientific officers, I want to ask you, you know, in terms of the field of drug development, not just bio analysis, what future challenges do you see coming down for the industry? Anything in particular?
Michelle:
Yeah, you know, this is something that we talk about a lot. I feel like, you know, it's something that occasionally maybe get brought up in our group meetings or things that are talked about at conferences, kind of what's coming and where are we going to go with it. And one of the things that I think we've brought up before is kind of like this evolution of more complex modalities, and it's actually something that I wanted to ask you. So I may actually just slide this question back over to you and get your opinion on where you think that's going and what are the challenges associated with that kind of shift?
Lynn:
Well, I think one of the things that I've really seen is that there is pressure to move more quickly in drug development. So if anything that we've learned from the recent pandemic and the success of the COVID vaccine drug development program, it's proof that we can move quickly when we need to. But. We want to move quickly. We want to get drugs approved, because that's ultimately why all of us came into this role, is because we wanted to make drugs that would benefit patient lives. That's ultimately what drives us to get up sometimes at four in the morning. But it's very important that as we move more quickly, we do not forget the importance of making sure that we are adequately testing drugs to make sure that they are safe and effective. And that's really where bio analysis comes in, because somebody will say, Lynne, what is bio analysis? And I'll very simply summarize it as it's the way that we test to make sure that drugs are working, the way that we think that they're working, and the means by which we assess whether or not the drug is safe for the patient. So we need to make sure that we are prepared to move quickly, but at the same time, still with rigor in discipline so that we are able to make sure that we are truly making sure that the drug is safe before we move it into the widespread patient population and things like that. And so I think that's what excites me about being a bioanalytical scientist, is that we are kind of the gatekeepers of that, right? It's up to us to make assays that are sufficiently robust, empowered to be able to make drug developers, enable them to make the decision that, okay, our drug works and it's safe, so let's go for it. And so I think that's something that I really like, but I think it's a challenge that we're going to have to deal with.
Michelle:
Yeah, I completely agree. And I kind of want to piggyback on that actually, because it's such a great example of what we had to do with creating these COVID vaccines and how quickly the science had happened. You know, I feel like we do so much to try to make sure that things are safe and effective and we contribute to that part of it. But one of the things that I see as a challenge is communicating that to the general public, right? Yes. Because as scientists that are engaged in that level of activity, you and I understand what goes into this. And when it moves faster, we understand why it moves faster and how things get truncated. But to the average person, they don't understand any of that. And I really feel like a scientist. We need to do a better job of being transparent and communicating that to people. You know, like we're not just here playing around doing fun things in the lab. Yay, science is cool. We actually are doing this for a reason and the job is hard for a reason and kind of communicating what that looks like and what it is that we're protecting people from and making sure that there's kind of a trust there, right? Like build a rapport with the non-scientists and the scientific community and especially, you know, nowadays when everything is so readily available.
Michelle:
So new information comes out and immediately everyone has access to it, but not everyone has the perspective and the the kind of framework to understand what that information means. And so I am really big on science advocacy and public education. And I think as scientists, that's our job. That's part of it, at least, right? Not just to do the science, but to explain the science in a way that everyone can understand. And I feel like I bioanalytical we we do that a lot, right? We try to do podcasts and put information out there on a very basic level to kind of introduce people to that. And, you know, we have blogs and webinars, but I feel like it never ends. There's always more that we could do write more ways we can connect with a broader audience and make sure that we're really bringing that scientific education to all ages and demographics.
Lynn:
Absolutely. I agree with you so much. You know, I think that is one of the things that drew me most to this role and to this company is that it lets us as scientific officers, we get to do the communication. You know, we get to help bring everyone up to speed and help communicate information in a way that is hopefully clear and transparent. And hopefully we are able to help both drug developers and our internal operations team through communication and talking. And I do like to talk, as has probably been well documented in this podcast. It's probably a good time for us to wrap this up. Michel, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I really appreciate it. This has been so much fun.
Michelle:
Of course. Yeah, I've loved it. It's been so good to just kind of get on here and talk about how we got where we are and bio analytics as a whole and everything. And like you said, we could talk about this forever, but I guess we should wrap up now. So thank you for joining.
Lynn:
Lynn Thank you, Michel.
Michelle:
I think that's all for today's episode. So everyone listening, if you enjoyed it, make sure you subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. So you never have to miss any of these riveting conversations. And if any of our listeners are other scientists in the industry and you'd like to talk more about how we can help you with your drug programs or anything that we talked about today, please feel free to go to Bioanalytical and use our Speak to a Scientist tool to get in touch with us. Or if you want to hang out more casually outside of the podcast. We do have a lot of webinars and other presentations available for your enjoyment and education. So again, just visit bioanalytical. Com to see what's coming up and how you can stay in touch. Thanks everyone.
Lynn:
Thanks for listening to the Molecular Moments podcast.
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